Right now I'm just trying to clarify HIS argument. So far he has been unable to convincingly explain why the magic is only "authentic" when nonwhites do it.I'm also unable to convincingly explain how one can swallow rocket fuel and fart his way to the moon. Which is why I'd never make such an absurd statement as "[Vodou] is only "authentic" when nonwhites do it."
Let's look at a quote from "Why I am not a Professional White Vodouisant,"
Since I wrote The Haitian Vodou Handbook, Mambo Chita Tann and Mambo Vye Zo Kommande la Menfo have also written excellent guidebooks for aspiring Vodouisants. We have all made it clear that while it is possible to honor the lwa and ancestors on your own, you will not be able to get to the heart of Vodou practice without actually joining a société and becoming an initiate (or, at the very least, a regular attendee at fets and public ceremonies for the lwa).Anyone can serve the lwa and the ancestors privately, regardless of their race, ethnicity, culture, gender, sexual orientation. But there is also a public and communal aspect to Vodou as there is with every other religion. And to understand that public aspect you're going to have to attend public services. There's nothing saying those services must be thrown by Haitians, or even that any Haitians must attend those services. But as a practical matter, the vast majority of fets being thrown in the United States today are thrown by Haitians and attended predominantly by Haitians.
Does it have to be that way? Not at all. It's entirely possible that a non-Haitian Houngan and Mambo Asogwe could hold a fet attended by their non-Haitian initiates and other interested non-Haitians. The excerpt above mentions two non-Haitian Mambos Asogwe: I'd also point you in the direction of Houngan Asogwe Matt Deos and Houngan Aboudja, both of whom are just as non-Haitian as a certain Houngan si Pwen who has written a few books on the subject. (For that matter, all five of the people I've mentioned above would likely be considered "white" by your average New York cabdriver). If Houngan Tim Landry is back from Benin, we could add another European-American practitioner of "authentic Vodou" to the mix - so there go any claims of Vodou "only being authentic if non-whites" -- or even non-Haitians -- practice it.
We would need to find a Houngenikon who knew the songs and drummers who knew the appropriate rhythms. Again, the vast majority of people with these qualifications in the United States are Haitian - but that is by no means a requirement. And while we'd probably have to wind up going to a Haitian marche (market) to pick up some of the necessary supplies, we could definitely use materials purchased on the Internet so long as they were the correct ones. I've seen Lotion Pompeia, Palma Christi Oil, and various other materials sold online, so that shouldn't be a problem. So there is nothing stopping us from holding a fet which hewed to the reglamen and served the spirits without so much as a single Haitian or Haitian-American crossing our threshold.
But here's the thing: none of the people I mentioned above would be particularly interested in going through the hoops required to hold this theoretical non-Haitian Vodou ceremony. We would all be more inclined to go to our initiators in the Haitian community and attend services there. While there is a non-Haitian Vodouisant community, it is still too small to offer the kind of knowledgeable and skilled people we could find by going to our Haitian friends and co-congregants. And we would not be particularly sympathetic to those who treated our friends with disrespect and wanted us to create a ceremony which adhered to Haitian protocols but protected their delicate sensibilities from coming in contact with our "scary" or "threatening" Haitian co-congregants. I wouldn't disinvite an African-American friend from my party to mollify a bigot who wanted to attend. Why would I treat my Haitian friends with any less respect?
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"I'm also unable to convincingly explain how one can swallow rocket fuel and fart his way to the moon. Which is why I'd never make such an absurd statement as "[Vodou] is only "authentic" when nonwhites do it."
Okay, maybe I just wasn't clear what you meant when you wrote "They wanted something more "authentic" than the One-Size-Fits-All reductionist monotheism which uses deities like ethnic decor. But they didn't actually want to deal with brown people to get that authenticity."
What type of authenticity is it that you only get when "dealing with brown people"?
That might be the sticking point we've been hung up on.
And on a separate note:
"And we would not be particularly sympathetic to those who treated our friends with disrespect and wanted us to create a ceremony which adhered to Haitian protocols but protected their delicate sensibilities from coming in contact with our "scary" or "threatening" Haitian co-congregants. "
What makes you think white people get into African magic-using traditions because they're afraid of black people? That doesn't make any sense.
Doesn't it stand to reason that someone interested in these traditions is going to work with whoever's handy and is willing to work with them? Doesn't it stand to reason that sometimes the most available person might happen to be white? Is it ALWAYS racist?
It's a really simple equation that anyone should be able to understand: when a community creates something and you participate in it, obviously you're going to end up interacting with members of that community. That's just how the world works. Any attempt to avoid it is just an attempt at being a special snowflake. That's the whole reason why dubstep fans hate Skrillex.
Wow, I just caught myself up on the last month and a half’s worth of posts and debates so forgive me for being very late on this one as I can’t help but add in my two cent observations.
Wade, you make a good point but I think you’ve gotten yourself hung up on the words Kenaz used and not hir meaning. When ze attempted to clarify you took it as “moving the goal posts.”
When you want to learn a cultural tradition or magic it’s is always best to learn from a practitioner and 90% of the time that will be someone of that cultures ethnic back ground, not that it HAS to be that way just that it is the most probable especially if you continue to involve yourself in that tradition.
It is my understanding that Kenza’s original post was also talking about the large group of middle class “spiritualist” who want something “exotic” in their practice, not because they truly feel called to that path but because they have an itch to scratch. I do not believe the Kenza was saying ALL white Americans who wish to study those traditions are like that, just that many are. Those who really do feel called to such traditions would have no problem learning from and regularly associating with their ethnic colleges.
That being said a lot of this could have been avoided had Kenza maid that distinction in the original post.
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As to the not on racial diversity at PCon, I have never been but I can imagine especially considering resent comments and posts on the mater. It is my opinion that a lot of the problem there is also something we need to deal with as people as a hole, and that it goes both ways.
There certainly are some white people who might take a second glance or even a third at someone of dark complexion practicing a Celtic tradition however there are also many who truly wouldn’t and are “color blind” so to say. There are also many Black/Hispanic/what ever who have grown up thinking that they are and will always be different from ‘white’ people, and so perceive a second glance when there was none. Human perception is a strong and strange thing sometimes.
As to how to fix this, I honestly have no idea. I consider myself ‘color blind’ as I have no right to tell anyone what and who they can follow and I DEFINATY don’t have the right to tell the Gods who they can and can not call on! (being a hard polytheist myself)
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As a final note I would say that though these discussions have been good and important I have had to bite my tongue on the language used, “white people” has been thrown about quite a bit and I like to assume the best in that they don’t mean ALL white people but the generalization really dose sting.
I have been a victim of reverse racism all of my young life. I grew up on the border in Arizona, and I was mocked bullied and even followed home because I was white. I was accused of being a Nazi because of my blond hair and blue eyes despite being of 50/50 Irish and Native American decent. As such I am very tired of hearing about how “white people misappropriate other cultures and are insensitive to minority plights” when not ALL or I would say even most are guilty of such.
Just a note on the use of language…
"It's a really simple equation that anyone should be able to understand: when a community creates something and you participate in it, obviously you're going to end up interacting with members of that community."
Not necessarily. I can drive a car without going to Detroit. I can practice origami without going to Japan. There is no guarantee that participating in any given activity automatically means you can't participate outside of the area where it originated. I'm not sure why you'd say that.
"Any attempt to avoid it is just an attempt at being a special snowflake."
Not sure why the attempt is an attempt to attempt attempting the attemption of ... wait, where the hell were you going with that? Blue is blue? Are you assuming that anyone who turns on a light switch without being trained by Thomas Edison personally automatically must have the motivation of being a "special snowflake"? What's that even mean?
"Wade, you make a good point but I think you’ve gotten yourself hung up on the words Kenaz used and not hir meaning. When ze attempted to clarify you took it as “moving the goal posts.”
Well, I think I've made it pretty clear that he's talking about two different things now. First it was all about skin color, and now it's about culture.
I'm willing to discuss culture immersion as a part of Initiation, if that's what he's actually talking about. But first I'd like some kind of closure on his original assertion that it was all about skin color.
Wade: Okay, maybe I just wasn't clear what you meant when you wrote "They wanted something more "authentic" than the One-Size-Fits-All reductionist monotheism which uses deities like ethnic decor. But they didn't actually want to deal with brown people to get that authenticity."
What type of authenticity is it that you only get when "dealing with brown people"?
If you get authenticity by working directly with the community-of-practice of a specific religion, and if (as in this case) the community-of-practice around that religion is made up primarily of brown people, then getting authentic Vodou means dealing with brown people. Kenaz is critical of non-brown people who want "authentic" Vodou but are afraid of actual brown people, and of other non-brown people who cater to those folks' fears.
Kenaz, does that about sum it up?
"Not necessarily. I can drive a car without going to Detroit. I can practice origami without going to Japan."
Oh, here's where we're misunderstanding each other. You think that religious traditions are equivalent to commodities that you can simply purchase.
But even in the case of your proposed example: is it so hard to imagine that a Japanese origami enthusiast might know something about the art that you don't? What I mean about special snowflakes is that it's hubristic to believe that there's absolutely nothing you could ever possibly gain by learning from the source. Do you disagree?
It's worth pointing out that even with commodities, an authentic connection to the source is often greatly valued. This is exactly why Porsche offers customers the option of picking up new vehicles directly from their factories in Germany instead of having them shipped to local Porsche dealerships.
@Scott Martin: that pretty much hits the nail on the head.
@V.V.F.: I think this is also an issue. If you approach Magic ala Uncle Al/777, it's easy to treat it as a "plug and play" system wherein there is one God which has many names and aspects and spellwork consists merely of calling on the right name and aspect by using the proper symbols. If you approach the spirits as real albeit discarnate beings, you'll find they don't fit neatly into a Table of Correspondences.
@Shawn, very well stated reply. Thank you. I've kept quiet for much the same reason you mentioned; the over-use of certain terms has been rather off-putting. I was born and raised, and currently live in the same area of the country as you and am incredibly sensitive to the native culture, land, peoples, and spirituality.
I'm hoping this discussion will become much less generalized. Most people I know just do not fit the mold being portrayed within this series of posts.
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