Well, America's three quarters white, pretty much across the board. When you take into account that paganism in general is most embraced by white liberals, you're going to HAVE to simply deal with the fact that there aren't a whole hell of a lot of blacks in the pagan community. It's not just PantheaCon, either. It's everywhere.Wade is offering as the answer what I presented as the question. I asked why it is that contemporary American Paganism is overwhelmingly white, middle-class and liberal he notes that "When you take into account that paganism in general is most embraced by white liberals, you're going to HAVE to simply deal with the fact that there aren't a whole hell of a lot of blacks in the pagan community." Which is rather like answering "why is the sky blue?" with "when you take into account that the sky is blue..."
I also note that Wade's response (and those of several other commenters) utterly fails to address the comments I posted from several black Pagans as to why they feel uncomfortable in the greater white Pagan community. One persistent theme among black Pagans was that they feel ignored and marginalized by white Pagans. Given the way their concerns were ignored by many who responded, I think they just may be onto something.
Then, when you address the fact that most African Americans who do practice magic don't, for the most part, actually participate much outside their own neighborhoods ... well, you just won't be seeing them going to events like PantheaCon. They're too busy doing stuff.Again: WHY don't they "participate much outside their own neighborhoods"? You are restating the question and presenting it as an answer. I'd also add that I have some questions about the statistical sampling you used to determine the preferences of "most African Americans who do practice magic." Especially since you seemed to miss several comments from African American practitioners in the post to which you responded.
Then there's the inherent racism in your sentiments, by stating outright that whites Just Can't Do Magic, and are apparently unable to make Santeria or Brujeria work without having their very own pocket Mexican right there to give them the thumbs-up on it.
Magic doesn't come from your skin color, any more than it comes from your naughty bits. Saying "No Honkies Allowed" is just as silly and counterproductive as saying "No Transies Allowed". Unless the ritual involves getting a decent tan, white people can do magic just as well as nonwhites.Seeing as how I never said whites Just Can't Do Magic - and in fact have written books which teach readers white and otherwise how to practice Haitian and New Orleans magic - I am puzzled as to where you came up with that one. What I said (or meant to say, just in case I was utterly unclear) is that there are many white Pagans who want to practice spooky, exotic magic from African diaspora, Hispanic and indigenous cultures but who show an active aversion to actually meeting representatives of those cultures. (The term generally used for that is "cultural appropriation," something we've been discussing here in other posts as well).
Obviously white people can do Vodou: I'd look awful damn silly saying they couldn't. But I question the motivations of those who want to learn Haitian Vodou but who have no interest in actually engaging with Haitian people. I have issues with people who want to call themselves "rootworkers" and "conjure folks" but who are terrified of the poor black people who actually originated this tradition. I find the white folks who will happily buy dream catchers and practice "Native spirituality" while stepping over the homeless drunk Cherokee in the parking lot distasteful. That doesn't mean they "Just Can't Do Magic." It means that I find their behavior to be exploitative and shameful. I harbor no illusions that I'm going to change it, but that doesn't stop me from calling them on it.
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13 comments:
Kenaz I started writing a reply but it was long so I just made it into a blog post: http://vermillionrush.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/any-colour-you-like/
"I asked why it is that contemporary American Paganism is overwhelmingly white, middle-class and liberal ..."
Well, actually, no you didn't. This whole line of discussion started with you asking "How do we fix this issue? How do we make our faiths more welcoming to people of color?" You didn't ask *at all* why the pagan community in America is overwhelmingly white.
And yes, maybe the answer did seem a little obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not the correct answer. Maybe you just weren't asking the right question.
"I also note that Wade's response (and those of several other commenters) utterly fails to address the comments I posted from several black Pagans as to why they feel uncomfortable in the greater white Pagan community. One persistent theme among black Pagans was that they feel ignored and marginalized by white Pagans."
I didn't miss their comments, or ignore their concerns. The problem is that you're asking for specific solutions to general issues about specific people. I can't control how nonwhites feel around me, any more than I can control exactly what they think about white people in general. That's all shaped by their experience, most of which doesn't include me as an individual.
As for why they feel marginalized ... well, if you want me to speculate, again the answer seems pretty obvious. If I'm in a room full of women, I'm going to be very aware of the difference in gender even if they're not. If I'm in a room full of black people, again I'm going to be very aware of the difference in race even if they're not. Being in the vast minority *anywhere*, for any reason, is going to make a person seriously self-conscious.
I suspect that the question you really should be asking is "Why does paganism appeal to heavily to white liberals?" and THAT, again, is asking for generalized answers to specific motivations. I can't do it.
"Again: WHY don't they "participate much outside their own neighborhoods"? "
And again, I can't speculate on generalized assessments of the motivations of specific people. You're asking me why birds fly, without taking into account all the different airborne activities birds engage in. I have no idea why they tend to do so, or even if it was just something localized to the areas where I've lived. I can't give you their individual motivations because I don't know. Sometimes, the sky is just blue, and you can ask all you want.
"Seeing as how I never said whites Just Can't Do Magic - and in fact have written books which teach readers white and otherwise how to practice Haitian and New Orleans magic - I am puzzled as to where you came up with that one. "
Maybe I misunderstood your exact words, but weren't your exact words "I'm guessing once Hoodoo and Vodou become passé, the next big thing will be Curanderia, Brujeria and the Santa Muerte cult. And I'm guessing, sadly, that many of these new "curanderos" and "brujas" will never get any closer to a real Mexican than their local Taco Bell."?
Doesn't that pretty much mean that your overall complaint is that white people are practicing traditions of magic which are exclusive to Mexicans? Or were you just making a funny?
"there are many white Pagans who want to practice spooky, exotic magic from African diaspora, Hispanic and indigenous cultures but who show an active aversion to actually meeting representatives of those cultures. "
Okay ... but again, why is skin color the determining factor for whether or not they can do it? Why do they HAVE to meet those representatives in order to make the magic work right? Also, there are white people in the Congo, born and bred, who would also be considered "representatives of those cultures" for all practical purposes. Not to mention the Christians and Muslims living there who, even though their skin color might match the Paleros and Brujas you mention, would hardly be qualified as teachers based only on their skin color.
Maybe I just don't "get" the whole emphasis on skin color here. Why is it "cultural appropriation" when a white person eats blackened catfish, but not when a black person eats pumpkin pie? Is it just White Guilt, or is there actually a magical element behind what you're saying?
"But I question the motivations of those who want to learn Haitian Vodou but who have no interest in actually engaging with Haitian people."
Yeah, and how about all those silly pagans who dare work in the Feri Tradition, but have no interest in going to Ireland and meeting real life Little People out in the mounds? I really really would like to know *why* the practice of a particular magic-using tradition should be based on a person's skin color at all. Why do they *have* to meet those people?
"I find the white folks who will happily buy dream catchers and practice "Native spirituality" while stepping over the homeless drunk Cherokee in the parking lot distasteful."
Why, specifically? Does he hold the patent on dreamcatchers?
@Wade: Okay ... but again, why is skin color the determining factor for whether or not they can do it? Why do they HAVE to meet those representatives in order to make the magic work right?
It's NOT an issue of making the magic work right, it's an issue of being a decent human-fscking-being. It's an issue of understanding and NOT repeating all the stuff we're already pissed off and still suffering from collectively. Time and time again, the majority of this country has said "We'll take your work, your sweat, and your blood, your music and your food, and your magic, and your lives, but WE DON'T WANT YOU. We don't want you in our neighborhoods, we don't want you in our schools, we don't want you marrying our children, we don't want to do business with you, and we especially don't want you making us feel uncomfortable for reminding us how much you put up with all of the above."
We're good as sidekicks, tokens (you've managed to get a black person in your circle! Here's your "diversity merit badge!"), and educators to further enhance and officially authenticate some bored suburban middle-class white lady's spiritual experience.
There is a very, very long trend of this. Our history is nothing but this. Pagan history specifically has been paved with the "borrowings" of other people's traditions, dressed up and sold in the new age shops of people that would be omgoodness shocked to see a black woman shopping there.
Also? I'm getting kinda tired to having to explain this over and over again to people who refuse to do any work or exercise any kind of empathy at all, or acknowledge they're talking about real live people will feelings like themselves, it's all *handwave* thought experiments and ideas, and stuff to argue just for the hell of it. I'm getting sick of guys like you just coming in and spewing your crap about MY reality, because this doesn't mean anything to you at all. You have no stake in it except the idea that maybe, at some point, you may not be allowed to get something shiny you want as easily as you might like.
"It's NOT an issue of making the magic work right, it's an issue of being a decent human-fscking-being."
And what specifically makes a person "decent" if they're still practicing the magic-using traditions of foreign cultures?
"Time and time again, the majority of this country has said "We'll take your work, your sweat, and your blood, your music and your food, and your magic, and your lives, but WE DON'T WANT YOU."
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but why do we have to want "them"? Should electricity be restricted to white people because Edison and Tesla were white? Electricity seems to work just fine for everyone, regardless of skin color. Is it "indecent" for nonwhites to flip a light switch?
"We're good as sidekicks, tokens (you've managed to get a black person in your circle! Here's your "diversity merit badge!")"
I don't pick people by their skin color. Why would I?
"There is a very, very long trend of this. Our history is nothing but this. Pagan history specifically has been paved with the "borrowings" of other people's traditions, dressed up and sold in the new age shops of people that would be omgoodness shocked to see a black woman shopping there. "
....except that you've apparently never worked at, been to, or seen a photograph of a pagan bookstore. I worked at one in Oakland and owned one in Eureka, and I don't recall anyone ever being shocked at seeing nonwhites in either store. The only racist incidents in either store were both instigated by black people.
"I'm getting kinda tired to having to explain this over and over again to people who refuse to do any work or exercise any kind of empathy at all"
You haven't "explained" anything. All you've done is rehashed the "I'm Black Yall" video from that godawful movie CB4.
Yes, we all understand that cultures are different in different parts of the world, and people have different skin colors in different parts of the world, but are those two facts directly related? In any way? At all?
Of course not. If you fail to understand why, scroll back up until you see the part about Edison and Tesla again.
"acknowledge they're talking about real live people will feelings like themselves"
And yet you seem to have no compunction about dismissing all us honkies as race thieves. Got it.
"I'm getting sick of guys like you just coming in and spewing your crap about MY reality"
Wow, I can't even address the level of irony in that statement.
"You have no stake in it except the idea that maybe, at some point, you may not be allowed to get something shiny you want as easily as you might like. "
By the same token, you seem to be simply upset that someone else is having fun playing on the beach you thought you owned all to yourself.
Sorry about your cognitive dissonance kiddo, but if you're going to start from the premise that white skin doesn't create entitlement, then the logical extension of that very point means that black skin doesn't create entitlement either.
So ... try actually answering my question this time - why is skin color the determining factor here?
You really do think you're actually making clever arguments and equivalent metaphors, don't you? That alone says volumes. Oy.
The thing about African Traditional Religions specifically? It'd be more like Edison giving everyone electricity and then finding a law was passed saying he could be put to death for flipping that switch and no one was allowed to sell him an electric light or any wire. Most of these minority religions were outlawed at one time or another in this country, and forced conversions were made--that systematic destruction still has enduring effects in our communities.
Knowing this history is important, because it provides context. Context is everything--not just for this area, but for everything. I'm not in the position to ignore context or empathy because I don't want to think about it or other people--if for no other reason than it makes stuff go smoother. This is pretty much basic human interaction stuff, Wade. What else is there to get? I'm not sure why you can't figure it out, which is why I'm thinking you're being willfully obtuse.
I don't pick people by their skin color. Why would I?
I didn't say you specifically did. I'm saying I've had experiences with people that haven't "picked people for their skin color" but do react this way to a seeker showing up, or when they visit circles that have PoC members. Various other posters have reported the same. Are we all lying, because you haven't done it and have never experienced it?
....except that you've apparently never worked at, been to, or seen a photograph of a pagan bookstore.
Two bookstores, and this proves what? Currently I live on the East Coast. I do have a store I visit regularly, as while it's rather cheesy, the staff is knowledgeable, there's a healthy racial mix and I don't tend get looked at like a three-headed unicorn when I walk through the door. A good shop is possible to find, but that doesn't mean what I just described doesn't exist either, which I'm thinking seems a bit strange, when the majority of pagans love to describe themselves as so open-minded and liberal and loving and all.
I answered the question you posed. I gave you a slice of context so you could empathize. It's not my fault you're incapable of it, or at least, not interested in extending it.
And yet you seem to have no compunction about dismissing all us honkies as race thieves. Got it.
....Where the flying fcsk are you getting THAT from? I didn't dismiss anyone as anything. I recapped grade school US history, which you've brushed off as something out of a bad movie. Also, I'm not in the habit of using that word--my husband is white. Should I get him to translate my points for you, since you're having so much difficulty understanding me?
Wow, I can't even address the level of irony in that statement.
Er, YOU started off with a comment about how we're in our neighborhoods doing stuff, and that's why we're not interested in P-Con. I never informed you what your life was like, and what your interests or priorities were, and if that's all you got out of what I said, then your reading comprehension needs work.
By the same token, you seem to be simply upset that someone else is having fun playing on the beach you thought you owned all to yourself.
Where are you getting these weird assumptions and projections from? You seem to keep trying to go back to "white people aren't allowed." I'm not making that rule. I would never suggest that white people can't practice whatever religion or serve whatever gods that will have them. YOU ASKED A QUESTION. I ANSWERED IT. You wanted to know why anyone should have to examine their actions towards a minority while participating in a minority tradition. I threw out a rough sketch of a reality a white person may want to consider before engaging in a traditional minority path. These things come up. These attitudes exist. It's something to bear into consideration when going there, and if that's too hard, then that seeker is probably better off pursing a different path. THAT IS STILL NOT THE SAME THING AS ME SAYING "NO YOU (personally) CAN'T DO THIS." That is not my call, and none of my business. I would not even be reading Kenaz's blog if I had a fundamental problem with white people practicing minority religions.
Sorry about your cognitive dissonance kiddo, but if you're going to start from the premise that white skin doesn't create entitlement, then
the logical extension of that very point means that black skin doesn't create entitlement either.
Excuse me, Wade, but I'm an adult. Not "kiddo." And again with your assumptions. I'm not experiencing any cognitive dissonance at all. Your points so far haven't been that impressive or effective. You're the one that's conflating the concept of "we feel taking on a traditional minority path without addressing any latent discomfort or issues with that particular minority is wrong" with "WHITE PEOPLE CAN'T PRACTICE MINORITY RELIGIONS."
Are you just completely unable to separate the two ideas, or do you automatically leap to the nearest hard-and-fast rule you find objectionable?
Now I'm going to take a moment to roll around in all the wonderful things my black skin entitles me to before I move on to the next bit of fun.
So ... try actually answering my question this time - why is skin color the determining factor here?
And for the last time: I do not believe skin color is a determining factor of what spirits you may serve or what religion you may take up. Where it DOES factor in is in interactions with the people that hold that tradition. Some people are simply fed up and are not going to to share with the folks they associate with oppression and exploitation. I can't really condemn them for it. Why is that? Gee I dunno, we live in the U.S.A in 2012 where skin color is still a factor in a lot of these experiences and attitudes! Overall I'd be much happier if it wasn't; I know my life would be so much easier, and I might be working with a much richer body of knowledge than the few cobbled-together shreds I am now.
But I'm already getting the feeling that there's little point in trying to answer your questions, because they're not being offered in good faith. You've already jumped to conclusions about the answers you're going to get, and you're being more than a little condescending besides. I've seen this behavior pattern before, and it's a total time and energy suck. But for the record--there actually are no nice and tidy answers and solutions to this. Ultimately, that's your answer. If we had the solution, racism would be solved already.
@Wade: Dude, fuck, your comments are so irredeemably racist that I really don't know where to start. You've seriously given nobody in the conversation anything of merit aside from an unending sample of victim blaming and other racist tropes, including the all-too-familiar "well *I* don't see skin-colour", as if it never occurred to you that might just be an example of your own privilege.
Note to Wade: you can't win with people who think like this, because even if you do, they will do what Ruadhan does above and just brush you off as "irredeemably racist" and dismiss your claim of color-blindness as "an example of your own privilege." Gotta love Orwellian doublethink! My advice is not to waste your time arguing with those who start from an assumption that you are the villain and seem immune to rational debate, because life is far too short.
If you must be part of an occult community, I suggest some variety of Satanism, because we don't generally get caught up in wretched debates of this kind. We begin from the assumption that all human beings are motivated by power, that there are no good guys and that no one owes anyone anything, and we simply try to annihilate each other until all that is left standing is the truth. I think what brother Kenaz is really saying here is that pagan folks tend to be weak white liberal types, and hence are easy marks for this kind of guilt-mongering. Embrace the power of the Satanic in your life and none of this will bother you, because guilt and self-hatred are largely Judeo-Christian constructs which are antithetical to the Satanic ethos.
"Where are you getting these weird assumptions and projections from?"
Well, from your own words. You're complaining about nonwhites stepping on "your" territory, so yeah that pretty much means exactly what I said - you're upset that someone else is playing with your shiny little toy.
"You seem to keep trying to go back to "white people aren't allowed.""
Well, that was the premise of the original post! Maybe you should google the phrase "Cultural Appropriation" if you want to understand what I actually wrote.
"YOU ASKED A QUESTION. I ANSWERED IT."
Actually no, you didn't. You danced around it several times (and now once more) but you never really got around to explaining exactly WHY skin color has any effect on whether or not someone is able to practice a particular magic-using tradition.
"And again with your assumptions. I'm not experiencing any cognitive dissonance at all."
I guess it requires cognitive faculties. You seem to be making a large number of assumptions yourself, such as the notion that black people aren't allowed in pagan bookstores (never saw that myself, but hey), and for some reason blaming that on me without even proving that it happens at all! And then you want to harp about MY assumptions when I quote your own words directly.
"You're the one that's conflating the concept of "we feel taking on a traditional minority path without addressing any latent discomfort or issues with that particular minority is wrong" with "WHITE PEOPLE CAN'T PRACTICE MINORITY RELIGIONS."
And once more, I'll give you the chance to dodge the issue - why do we NEED to get the Good Honky Seal of Approval before any of we nonwhites dare to practice a "nonwhite" magic-using tradition?
Seriously, what does ANYTHING about magic have to do with getting the approval of someone based on the color of their skin? I brought up the example of electricity, first harnessed by white people but used by people of all akin colors ... because skin color doesn't have any practical relationship to the use of electricity.
So, when you can stop whining and actually explain why the practice of any particular magic-using tradition is somehow dependent on the color of a person's skin, then I'll continue entertaining this conversation with you.
Until then, it seems that all you're doing is just having general issues that someone dared to question your argument against white people practicing "your" traditions.
"You really do think you're actually making clever arguments and equivalent metaphors, don't you? That alone says volumes. Oy."
Wow, I had no idea that it was actually a detriment to be intelligent these days. Do you watch a lot of "Two and a Half Men"?
"The thing about African Traditional Religions specifically? It'd be more like Edison giving everyone electricity and then finding a law was passed saying he could be put to death for flipping that switch and no one was allowed to sell him an electric light or any wire."
So your argument seems to be that black people were somehow forbidden from practicing their own traditions, but white people were still allowed to practice those exact traditions. Do you have any kind of reference for this?
"Knowing this history is important, because it provides context."
Show me the history of white people being allowed to practice African magic, while simultaneously putting to death any Africans who did the same. That was your example, and you want me to know the history of it happening, so let's see it.
"This is pretty much basic human interaction stuff, Wade. What else is there to get?"
Well, you could go ahead and answer the question I've asked you repeatedly - why is skin color the determining factor in whether or not someone can practice a particular magic-using tradition.
And I'm sure you'll deny that's the case, but if you had actually read over the thread, you'll see that ... that's the case. It hasn't been presented as a problem that African-Americans are practicing traditions from African cultures they didn't grow up in. It's been all about the COLOR OF THEIR SKIN, nothing else.
"I don't pick people by their skin color. Why would I?
I didn't say you specifically did. "
Except for the part where you actually did that very thing: "you've managed to get a black person in your circle! Here's your "diversity merit badge!"
So yes, you DID say I specifically did that. Now explain why you said it.
"Two bookstores, and this proves what?"
Well, you're the one who made the claim that we honkies would be aghast if a nonwhite person came into a pagan bookstore, but I've never seen this to be the case and I've been in pagan bookstores all over the country and that just doesn't happen.
"And for the last time: I do not believe skin color is a determining factor of what spirits you may serve or what religion you may take up."
Then what exactly are you whining about? You've been dividing the major players up by skin color, so if it's not about skin color .... well, which time were you lying?
"Where it DOES factor in is in interactions with the people that hold that tradition."
And again you dodge the question - why does it matter? Did you have to meet Edison personally before you got permission to turn on the lights in your house? Or are you just wanting to inject a bunch of White Guilt Politics into magical practice? What does THAT accomplish? Would it make me a better Palero if I were properly ashamed of events long past that I wasn't even part of?
"Some people are simply fed up and are not going to to share with the folks they associate with oppression and exploitation."
Ah, so it's about THEIR mindset, not MINE. Sounds like the hangup's all on you, cupcake. If there's anyone who needs to do a little self-work here, it isn't us honkies.
"Gee I dunno, we live in the U.S.A in 2012 where skin color is still a factor in a lot of these experiences and attitudes! "
Okay, now you're just all over the place. First you said it was all about skin color, then when I called you on your racism you said it wasn't about skin color at all, and now you're flipflopping again and admitting that it was about skin color all along.
So go ahead and explain to me why skin color helps or hinders anyone practicing magic.
"Overall I'd be much happier if it wasn't; I know my life would be so much easier, and I might be working with a much richer body of knowledge than the few cobbled-together shreds I am now. "
News Flash - life is tough all over. I don't know why you're labouring under the delusion that we honkies have everything handed to us, but we don't. Nobody has every walked up to me and said "Oh hey there, white guy. Here's a job and lots of money, and swing by the house tonight and sleep with my daughter. She's white too!" It just doesn't happen.
So ... you say your life would be easier without all these racial issues in America, but I think you hit the nail on the head a few minutes ago when you admitted that it was all about YOUR perceptions and not mine. Maybe your life would be easier without all these racial issues in your mind.
"But I'm already getting the feeling that there's little point in trying to answer your questions"
TRANSLATION: "I've started following the obvious logical pattern here, and realized I was wrong. I can't admit that, so I'm just going to scuttle off with my tail between my legs."
"Note to Wade: you can't win with people who think like this"
Oh, I'm not trying to "win" anything. If there was any reasoning with bigots, they wouldn't be bigots. I'm just pointing out the fact that I was accused of wrongdoing based on my skin color, and I felt like debunking the tired old stereotypes and white-bashing that's become so trendy.
"brush you off as "irredeemably racist" and dismiss your claim of color-blindness as "an example of your own privilege."
Yeah, she just got done playing that card.
"If you must be part of an occult community, I suggest some variety of Satanism, because we don't generally get caught up in wretched debates of this kind."
Been there.
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