That being said: here is a comment from a womyn identifying herself as "Fawn."
No one seems to be mentioning this was a skyclad ritual...so what would happen when the trans-women took off their clothes in front of the genetic-women? What about the women who were in the ritual and on their periods, would it have grossed them out?It appears that you missed the point which I've tried to make in several posts about this subject. Let me repeat it again, writ large for those who have visual impairments.
I am not questioning the rights of Dianic Wiccans to hold "womyn born womyn/genetic women only" rituals. I question the wisdom of holding them at a public event.
Let me know if you missed any part of this. I can look for a bigger font.
All the hateful language being talked about from all sides makes me ashamed of my community, NOT my body or what I did. I did not hear anything of the sort being said from the Dianics' like this...the gossip surrounding this is nauseating.Perhaps you missed this earlier message from Z Budapest:
This struggle has been going since the Women’s Mysteries first appeared. These individuals selfishly never think about the following: if women allow men to be incorporated into Dianic Mysteries,What will women own on their own? Nothing! Again! Transies who attack us only care about themselves.
We women need our own culture, our own resourcing, our own traditions.
You can tell these are men, They don’t care if women loose the Only tradition reclaimed after much research and practice ,the Dianic Tradition. Men simply want in. its their will. How dare us women not let them in and give away the ONLY spiritual home we have!
Men want to worship the Goddess? Why not put in the WORK and create your own trads.
The order of ATTIS for example,(dormant since the 4rth century) used to be for trans gendered people, also the castrata, men who castrated themselves to be more like the Goddess.
Why are we the ONLY tradition they want? Go Gardnerian!Go Druid! Go Ecclectic!
Filled with women, and men. They would fit fine.
But if you claim to be one of us, you have to have sometimes in your life a womb, and overies and MOON bleed and not die
Women are born not made by men on operating tables.Do you find this to be an appropriate response to transgender women by a Dianic elder? Many do not - and they are choosing to make their feelings known. You may not like their opinions, you may not agree with them, but let's not pretend that the trans community and trans allies are the only ones slinging mud here.
What about the Trans-gender ritual that also took place? Or the men's spirituality workshop? There are many dimensions to this, as there are people, and MINE was nothing but empowering. I prayed for these folks, that they receive the grace of peace from the Goddess in their lives."They have their own churches, they have their own schools, they have their own water fountains. Why do you need to come in here stirring up trouble?"
Maybe they could have spent that energy protesting the neglect of CHILDREN at this event... I saw kids dragged to restaurants at 1am (under 3 years old), kids throwing up in trash cans whilst their parents continued to be engaged in conversations and were oblivious, babies who were obviously sick with green snot being carted around to listen to very adult conversations. It was extremely embarrassing and disappointing to see so many people who CARED about the transgenders feelings, yet ignored the children's needs.And you did what to protect these children? Did you complain about it on your blog? Did you go to con staff? Did you get in touch with San Jose Child Protective Services? Forgive me for my bluntness, but methinks you care about "the children" only insofar as you can use them to derail attention from the issue at hand. Which is, in case you missed it the first time:
I am not questioning the rights of Dianic Wiccans to hold "womyn born womyn/genetic women only" rituals. I question the wisdom of holding them at a public event.
That being said: as a parent, here's a smack in the head to those parents who didn't take the needs of their young children into account while attending a convention. The behavior Fawn described is repellent and unacceptable: try to do better next time.
I don't personally care about someone's gender identity, sexual orientation, or political affiliation in our community; I leave that up to the Christian fundies. Religion IS exclusive, especially any mysteries. I encourage those who felt 'left out' to re-claim their own mysteries and give empowerment to themselves, instead of trying to take from others.You really didn't read the original post, did you? Pay close attention to this part, which I've once again writ large for the visually or cluefully impaired:
As for a lack of "safe spaces" - this gets back to what I said earlier. Christians are allowed to welcome or to shut out any potential congregants they see fit. They can rail against homosexuals, race mixers, Jewish bankers, secular humanists, Muslims and the like from their own pulpits. Those who find their teachings to be edifying are free to attend their churches. Last I checked, no one was seriously talking about making the practice of Evangelical Christianity illegal: neither is anyone saying that Dianics should not be allowed to practice their faith as they wish and to open their private events to participants of their choice. But like many others who are unwilling to own their own privilege, Sierra seems to mistake the right to freedom of speech and religion with the right to a cheering section.
You seem to think that asking Dianics to refrain from holding rituals which will divide the community and which exclude certain women based on a standard which many consider discriminatory and hurtful, is the same thing as "trying to take" their mysteries. You're welcome to your mysteries. You just aren't (or shouldn't be) welcome to bludgeon others with them at a public event. And your refusal to recognize that reeks of your middle-class white privilege: you are more interested in your own selfish needs than in the feelings and concerns of others in the community.
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8 comments:
Yes, this. All of this. Thank you. I'm so heart sick and depressed by Z.'s statement last year (and refusal to apologize in a meaningful manner or retract the statement) and her behavior this year that I no longer consider her one of my Dianic elders though I do acknowledge her work and struggles. But I can't accept her words and actions and I won't accept her words and actions.
I never said I agreed with what Z said or what happened in the past...I am only commenting on what I saw at Pantheacon from my perspective, because that is all I can truly offer. Many of the situations I saw with children were within sight of Pantheacon staff and their parents, even in their hospitality suite...and I did say something. But I would never tell someone how to raise their children, nor would I ever tell someone they aren't a woman.
Many of the 'public' rituals at the conference had restrictions placed on it (and I say that in quotes because we are paying to attend, not just anyone can walk in), but because this particular one was concerning Z. Budapest, I feel it was singled out.
It isn't worth arguing with me because I'm just a nobody who, especially after this weekend, am choosing to stay out of the Pagan community at large. There are several things besides this issue tearing the very fabric of it apart, and I would rather focus on my spiritual life than other people's drama. Good luck to them and you.
This is, perhaps, a little blunt... but...
If Miss Budapest has been the figurehead and leader of a tradition based upon the healing of women for a (very long time) and has yet to be healed of her own prejudices, traumas, and fears... exactly how functional and useful is her tradition?
@Scylla - all I can say is that she's not the only founder of the tradition and that we don't all espouse the exact same belief as she does. Just like with witches, Wiccans, Druids, etc.
Deborah, rest assured I'm not referring to the whole of Dianic practice, but rather those who adhere to the specific brand of swamp water being belched by Budapest.
This. This. and This.
Something that has been bugging me about this:
Should we not look at the reasons why Z - as the presenter of the class - wanted to ban transgender individuals? Everyone keeps saying that this was a healing ritual for women, but...let's ask Z why she wants transgender women to stay away, shall we?
The hate speech she's used when it comes to transgender women and men seems to belie a less than altruistic reason for exclusion. This should have been considered when allowing this particular exclusion to occur. She made these thoughts known after last year's incident, and nothing has changed.
Unfortunately, the folks at PantheaCon have refused to speak as to why they've allowed her to do this for the 2nd year in a row. I reached out to Glenn Turner, the chair of Pantheacon, for an interview for my show, and I got this response:http://www.incitingariot.com/2012/02/episode-68-inciting-conventional-riot.html
Pretty upsetting that they're choosing not to acknowledge the issue.
FL
Agreed wholeheartedly. To bill a ritual as being "for women" and then add an exclusionary clause of "but not those women" is discriminatory and ridiculous.
Furthermore, I feel that when one takes a ritual to a convention, one is creating that ritual for public consumption. Regardless of an intent to educate, any ritual held in a public space is something that will inform the community at large about one's tradition and practices. I don't understand why anyone would therefore go out to present something which shows their tradition or working group in an unfavorable light. From a PR standpoint, holding an exclusionary ritual at a public event (to say nothing of the inflammatory message from Z you've quoted above) is far more harmful than helpful.
Bingo. Do what you will in your coven only spaces, as long as you don't go out and harm others. But dragging this type of thing into a public space, complete with derogatory remarks and then acting all persecuted is just plain stupid, crass, and rude. It smacks, indeed, of privilege wielded to hurt others.
Heliokinetic also brings up a very valid point: "...when one takes a ritual to a convention, one is creating that ritual for public consumption. Regardless of an intent to educate, any ritual held in a public space is something that will inform the community at large about one's tradition and practices." That is why you don't usually see the full-on Great Rite in a public ritual. It's public, and there are some things you just don't do in public. Dumping your bigotries on the people who aren't in your little clique is one of them. Excreting fecal matter is another.
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